Curse

chalt2 · May 12, 2005, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Ok, so this means we'll have to find a new spot to enter - kill specific mobs - exit - repeat. As oh so fun as that sounds, it's not my main beef. I find myself spending much more time entering - checking boss - rezoning, just to find the right boss with the right skill. Not to mention the time it takes to "rebeat" the game with other characters of 2 seperate classes to get the other skills I want.

Twinking the loot drops doesn't remove the grind it takes to become competetive. Far from it actually.

Or wait, I got it, you could just NOT play the game at all if it is so bad that you aren't enjoying your time playing it.

Or maybe spend some more time IN-Game and less time in here complaining about how bad it is, for YOU.

Shinsei · May 12, 2005, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

Shock!

You have to actually make an effort and spend a few hours exploring in an online game before becoming "1337 Pkz0rz?"

Try playing an mmorpg like Warcraft..I think you'll find that this requires you to (I've never played it, but this is just what I gather.) spend hours and hours levelling in order to experience the pvp side properly?

Well compared to that, I think you will find that there is minimal grind contained in Guild Wars, so stop whining and accept that you're not going to get an ultimate character from when you first install the game.

I used to play a game called Runescape..in order to get to the level of a true pker who could actually do some damage and make a profit in the process you had to spend around 6-12 months of pve, grinding out the levels..compare that to the, what..3 weeks of exploration required to get some decent runes and skills in Guild Wars?

From this, I can see the discussion is getting out of hand and probably should stop, however I would like to take the time to answer a few of the points you brought up first.

First of all, if you have gotten through all the PvE content and are trying to make a PvP competetive account (which I doubt that you've reached yet considering your reply), you would notice that no, it's not just a few hours of grinding the repeative farming routes. It's days. The first 50 hours of my /age is what it took me to get through the game. The other 150+ is from farming riverside or trying to find the right boss, and I'm very far from getting what I want to PvP.

Now, comparing this to something like WoW was a very poor argument, as first of all, the idea of this game was that you don't have to grind this amount of time at all for what you want. As stated by "the pvp whiners" (i think that's what a.net and the "PvE'ers" like to refer to us as) a million times over, the concept of this game is that it's not about hours played, but how you play. Meaning that there shouldn't be items or skills that make you "better" than others, and if there are, they should be fairly easy to get and not be exclusive only to those willing to go through the grind for them.

I think you fail to see that GW was not supposed to be your common MMORPG where accomplishments gave you statistical advantages over your competition, but it seems as if that's what it turned in to. A.net was on the right track with asthetic rewards instead of rewarding us with skills/runes for hard accomplishments. It's a shame they haven't yet gone full out with it.

With respect to the thread's topic, I'll choose to end the discussion (on my part atleast), and not reply to more on this matter.

Mimu · May 12, 2005, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

From this, I can see the discussion is getting out of hand and probably should stop, however I would like to take the time to answer a few of the points you brought up first.

Yes, I probably shouldn't have been so defensive..I've just seen this complaint posted so many times now, and it is really starting to annoy me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

First of all, if you have gotten through all the PvE content and are trying to make a PvP competetive account (which I doubt that you've reached yet considering your reply), you would notice that no, it's not just a few hours of grinding the repeative farming routes. It's days. The first 50 hours of my /age is what it took me to get through the game. The other 150+ is from farming riverside or trying to find the right boss, and I'm very far from getting what I want to PvP.

(I haven't finished all of the pve content yet, I am currently playing through the ascension missions.)

I would have to say..surely you do not have to get every elite skill and rune? If people who do have them all hold an advantage over those who don't, it's only because they spent the time earning them..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Now, comparing this to something like WoW was a very poor argument, as first of all, the idea of this game was that you don't have to grind this amount of time at all for what you want. As stated by "the pvp whiners" (i think that's what a.net and the "PvE'ers" like to refer to us as) a million times over, the concept of this game is that it's not about hours played, but how you play. Meaning that there shouldn't be items or skills that make you "better" than others, and if there are, they should be fairly easy to get and not be exclusive only to those willing to go through the grind for them.

I understand this, however an online rpg (I'm reluctant to call it an mmorpg, as there are already arguments on that point.

) where everything is finished within 2 weeks does not appeal to the masses..of course a.net are not going to please everybody, there will always be some who are not happy with the game mechanics.

I, personally think they have found a balance..as really, every mmorpg does require a small amount of grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

I think you fail to see that GW was not supposed to be your common MMORPG where accomplishments gave you statistical advantages over your competition, but it seems as if that's what it turned in to. A.net was on the right track with asthetic rewards instead of rewarding us with skills/runes for hard accomplishments. It's a shame they haven't yet gone full out with it.

See my above point.

But consider this..if they just handed the runes and skills to you (Which they may have done this update anyway, decreasing the rarity of rune drops.

) the game would be over too quickly, and everyone would be forced to pvp..giving a pvp character everything from the beginning would also be a mistake, as then what would happen to the roleplay characters?

There will always be one side of the game complaining about something, but removing this skill system would decrease the lifespan of the game, or make rpers complain that their characters are now pointless as you do not have to earn anything to pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

With respect to the thread's topic, I'll choose to end the discussion (on my part atleast), and not reply to more on this matter.

So will I..but I am sure other people will continue to post on this subject. (I may have started something here..sorry.

)

Xellos · May 12, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Dumbest Arguement Ever.

Quote:

I would have to say..surely you do not have to get every elite skill and rune? If people who do have them all hold an advantage over those who don't, it's only because they spent the time earning them..

Mimu, you have just killed off everything this game stands for with this statement. Please do not argue about this point. BWE buying elite skills was never complained about by anyone. This is just some crappy way of justifying the elite system being elite in the first place. Which as BlackAce will probably rush in and scream out loud, the elite system sucks, it's just a cop out to balancing the skills. The advantage should never be earned by time or luck, but rather skill. That is the core design of this game. Go against it, and your debate has as much meat as a veggie burger.

Quote:

I understand this, however an online rpg (I'm reluctant to call it an mmorpg, as there are already arguments on that point. ) where everything is finished within 2 weeks does not appeal to the masses..of course a.net are not going to please everybody, there will always be some who are not happy with the game mechanics.

Ha, try asking the whole forum who has a Superior Expertise Rune unlocked.
200 hours of farming from some people here and nada.

Quote:

But consider this..if they just handed the runes and skills to you (Which they may have done this update anyway, decreasing the rarity of rune drops. ) the game would be over too quickly, and everyone would be forced to pvp..giving a pvp character everything from the beginning would also be a mistake, as then what would happen to the roleplay characters?

Oh, I don't know, they would roleplay for once? Maybe try out PVE builds? Stuff like Superior Air Rune isn't exactly going to be useful in PVE anyways, but it sure as hell is needed for almost any competitive aeromancer. You should stop being so use to PVE = Rewards, and should think PVE = Fun. If PVE is attractive only because of rewards, then Anet has failed its mission in the first place. Some people actually like to explore, some people actually like to do miscellaneous quests, but not everyone. Most people just want the best damn stuff they can get. As a company that was set out to make a game that breaks this trend, it is their duty to break this mentality, not support it.

thaumaturge · May 12, 2005, 12:11 PM // 12:11

The addition of a marker placed on the big map (m) to indicate where the quest is would have to be the greatest addition to any single game ever. No that is not an exaggeration

Stur · May 12, 2005, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Update – Wednesday May 11

* Major changes to PvP Arenas! Previously, each Arena had a separate outpost. When you joined an Arena, you continued playing on that map repeatedly until you lost. Now, the various high-level Arena maps all share a common outpost. When you enter the high-level Arena, you’ll play on many different maps with many different victory conditions, and you’ll need to master all the maps to keep on winning.

* After each consecutive PvP victory, the game now displays the number of consecutive wins.

* A new screen at the end of PvP character creation allows you to choose the starting location of your PvP character.

* We retired the old “Dazed," “Shock Sniper," “Divine Healer.” and “Trapper” PvP-only character templates, and rotated in some new templates, including three new templates created by guilds that won our April ladder contest. Additionally, we tweaked the skills of many other PvP character templates. These changes only affect the creation of new characters; existing characters created with an old template may continue to use that old template.

* You can now store gold in your account storage vault! The vault can store up to 1000 platinum pieces, and individual characters can now hold a maximum of 100 platinum pieces.

* PvP-only characters can now access the account storage vault for free.

* Entering “The Underworld” now costs 1 platinum piece, the same as entering “The Fissure of Woe." Rewards in both maps have been significantly improved.

* New quests! In Post-Searing Ascalon: “The Weaver of Nebo” and “Iron Horse War Machine." In “The Fissure of Woe:” “Tower of Courage," “The Wailing Lord," “A Gift of Griffons," “Army of Darkness," “The Eternal Forgemaster," “Defend the Temple of War," and “Restore the Temple of War."

* Primary quests in Pre-Searing Ascalon now chain together, making it more straightforward for new players to complete Pre-Searing Ascalon and gain entrance to the Academy.

* Increased drop rates for Uncommon and Rare items in Explorable Areas.

* Implemented various minor fixes and clarifications to existing quests.

* Implemented various tweaks to monster difficulty and loot balance.

* Added new boss monster encounters in the “Ring of Fire” area.

* Added new bonuses on certain collector and quest items.

* Instituted skill changes: “Watch Yourself!” correctly affects characters who were already affected by another instance of the skill. “Firestorm” now continues to cast even if the target enemy dies during spellcasting. We’ll revise other area-effect spells to work this way in future updates.

* The party window and account storage windows now correctly remember their position and size.

* There are many new hints displayed in Pre-Searing Ascalon, and a new option to disable the display of hints.

* When you gain a level, a button now appears prompting you to spend your newly acquired attribute points.

* Quest destination points now appear on both the Map Area and Map Travel windows.

* Most NPC text is now logged to the chat window, as well as being displayed in game.

* Implemented various minor fixes to UI.

* Fixed crafters recognizing high-level crafting items.

* Fixed problems which caused excessive scarcity of Fur Squares, Linen, and Silk.

* Implemented fixes for incorrect behavior when a player or party disconnects before the beginning of a competitive game.

* Implemented fixes for miscellaneous rare crash bugs.

* Added the ability to change postal mailing address on account.

* Improved hardware compatibility.

I can't read the main GW site from work so I thought if anyone else had the same problem they might still want to read

chalt2 · May 12, 2005, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

You should stop being so use to PVE = Rewards, and should think PVE = Fun. If PVE is attractive only because of rewards, then Anet has failed its mission in the first place. Some people actually like to explore, some people actually like to do miscellaneous quests, but not everyone. Most people just want the best damn stuff they can get. As a company that was set out to make a game that breaks this trend, it is their duty to break this mentality, not support it.

The expectation that AN or ANY company for that matter can create the "perfect" game is ludecrous, trying to please EVERYONE is an exercise in futility.
The game is what it is, either you like the game for the most part and deal with the parts you don't or just don't play it. GW IS a great game, one of the BEST ever released, is it perfect, nope, are there some things I don't PERSONALLY like about the game, you bet but compared to the others I've played like WoW and EQ2, hands down a better game Guild Wars is.

The bottom line is that people are different and they want, look for and expect different things in different ways and if you think that it's AN's responsability to change that, wow do you have big surprise comming.

Xellos · May 12, 2005, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

The expectation that AN or ANY company for that matter can create the "perfect" game is ludecrous, trying to please EVERYONE is an exercise in futility.

I'd give you a cookie on being obvious, but I ran out.

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The game is what it is, either you like the game for the most part and deal with the parts you don't or just don't play it.

People like you who say that are the people who are either fine with the way things are, or you just don't have the confidence and dignity to stand up for yourself. There are reasons most online games now have forums, and changes. People complain, the game changes. Game companies can no longer just make something a hit, sell it off, and go on to the next product. They have to maintain customer loyalty. You underestimate how the market works. For that matter, if your the "dont like it dont play it" type of person, why are you posting here? This is clearly not a thread meant for people like you.

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GW IS a great game, one of the BEST ever released, is it perfect, nope, are there some things I don't PERSONALLY like about the game, you bet but compared to the others I've played like WoW and EQ2, hands down a better game Guild Wars is.

So your bias is blinding your judgement, and covers your eyes from viewing in other people's views correctly. You think telling people that you love guild wars is going to make your arguement stronger?

Quote:

The bottom line is that people are different and they want, look for and expect different things in different ways and if you think that it's AN's responsability to change that, wow do you have big surprise comming.

You obviously don't have a clue what I was talking about. Everything I have stated belongs to the core design of the game originally. And it still is. It just hasn't been achieved yet. PVP balance is a core goal, but it hasn't been achieved yet. Do we leave it be? No. Then what about the concept of Skill > Time Played? Do we just leave it because someone like you said so? Anet can do whatever they want, but if any company decides to give better service and give customers fulfilled promises, even Anet won't survive. If you think this mentality of yours is real, then your probably the kind of guy who thinks voting is pointless, or that companies like Blizzard didn't take a hit from being plain stupid.

The arguement is over.

Stur · May 12, 2005, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Somebody needs a hug

Xellos · May 12, 2005, 12:49 PM // 12:49

No it's just ridiculous how people can actually argue against you when you are supporting the core concepts of the game. That's like saying someone told you tetris was fine if all of a sudden a circle block fell down.

chalt2 · May 12, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

So your bias is blinding your judgement, and covers your eyes from viewing in other people's views correctly. You think telling people that you love guild wars is going to make your arguement stronger?

First if your going to put words in my mouth please make them correct, I LOVE my wife and my kids, I ENJOY Guild Wars as I assume you do as well or you wouldn't be here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

but if any company decides to give better service and give customers fulfilled promises, even Anet won't survive. If you think this mentality of yours is real, then your probably the kind of guy who thinks voting is pointless, or that companies like Blizzard didn't take a hit from being plain stupid.

Voting is only pointless if you don't do it, companies take "hits" all the time for kinds of reasons and yes stupidity is one of them.

What "promises" has Arena Net not fulfilled? Did they miss the relaes date? Is Guild Wars NOT different from most if not all the other games of its kind?
Are not able to jump into PvP right out of the box?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

The arguement is over.

Why? Are you an admin of the site?

Hysteria · May 12, 2005, 12:56 PM // 12:56

I for one am glad uncommon to rare drops will be more randomized and now I can stop farming those Drakes. Only problem is if they are increased in number they won't be so rare now will they which isn't necesarilly a bad thing now that I think about it. Perhap's it will balance out the economy a bit better. Oh one more thing, the only thing that's hard for me to get used to id the new music. Don't get me wrong I enjoy it, it's just a bit to high pitched for me while playing the game and yes I know there is a music slider

Xellos · May 12, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

First if your going to put words in my mouth please make them correct, I LOVE my wife and my kids, I ENJOY Guild Wars as I assume you do as well or you wouldn't be here.

People who state things that have nothing to do with the topic usually do it to somehow help justify their position. You just supported my theory.

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Voting is only pointless if you don't do it, companies take "hits" all the time for kinds of reasons and yes stupidity is one of them.

It's, companies take "hits" all the time for all kinds of reasons....etc etc etc.

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What "promises" has Arena Net not fulfilled? Did they miss the relaes date? Is Guild Wars NOT different from most if not all the other games of its kind?

That is what this topic is about. It has too much grind in the game. It has not yet fulfilled this specific promise.

Quote:

Are not able to jump into PvP right out of the box?

ArenaNet did advertise being able to do that. They also advertised skill being more important then items and time spent on all levels. Not just hardcore levels. That means, casual players should never be differentiated by time spent as much as their skill. Currently, this is not how it works.

Quote:

Why? Are you an admin of the site?

No, I have logic. Your not even argueing. Your patronizing yourself. It was over from the start when you tried to rebuttle the other guy. Denial doesn't change the fact that you have no content in your arguement. Your just using stuff like "the games great, i lov it" "har har har, so what if you cant play from teh ghetgho?"

Your not specific, your using phrases that try to make me sound too picky, and therefore you don't even have anything to argue on. We could always take a poll, but I'm trying to be nice, and not cause a slaughter based on common sense.

Stur · May 12, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Dude I gotta call Bull@$#@, the grind in this game is fun and if the SMALL amount of work they make you do is to much you shoulda never left TribesII, I'm not trying to be mean here, but come on. I played lineageII for over a year and THAT is a grind LOL

Guild Wars is the best game I've played in years, my only worry is that I’m chewing though the "grind" so fast I'm afraid of running out of PvE content before the first expansion and only having PvP left to do.

chalt2 · May 12, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

That is what this topic is about. It has too much grind in the game. It has not yet fulfilled this specific promise..

The game has been out for two weeks and YOU have not been able to obtain whatever "golden nuget" you are looking for so therefor there is to much grind, I'm sorry to hear that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

ArenaNet did advertise being able to do that. They also advertised skill being more important then items and time spent on all levels. Not just hardcore levels. That means, casual players should never be differentiated by time spent as much as their skill. Currently, this is not how it works.

Ok then please enlightne me, HOW does it work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Your not specific, your using phrases that try to make me sound too picky, and therefore you don't even have anything to argue on. We could always take a poll, but I'm trying to be nice, and not cause a slaughter based on common sense.

Please, make the poll, I'll take it and post.

Dazzler · May 12, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaumaturge

The addition of a marker placed on the big map (m) to indicate where the quest is would have to be the greatest addition to any single game ever. No that is not an exaggeration

I agree! That has made picking a path on the map SO much better.

May 12, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

No it's just ridiculous how people can actually argue against you when you are supporting the core concepts of the game. That's like saying someone told you tetris was fine if all of a sudden a circle block fell down.

I might have to put this in a sig one day

Chalt if you have no idea what you are talking about, stop posting about it you're just cluttering the thread

chalt2 · May 12, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Chalt if you have no idea what you are talking about, stop posting about it you're just cluttering the thread

Have I made any erroneous statements?

Or is it that if my ideas aren't the same then "I have no idea what I am tlaking about"

Now if I was in here spouting that the only real thing that matters in the game is how many Fur squares you have and how much money you can get for them, then I could see your point.

Odd Sock · May 12, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

What "promises" has Arena Net not fulfilled? Did they miss the relaes date? Is Guild Wars NOT different from most if not all the other games of its kind?

Well I have the box right in front of me and it specifically says right here, in caps mind you,'YOUR SKILL WILL BE YOUR LEGEND: you'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played...'

How will you be competitive if you don't have Zealous upgrades on your PvP warriors ? How will you be competitive if you dont have Superior Expertise or Superior Air Runes ? Can you even consider yourself worthy without Superior Vigor ? and dont get me started on elite skills. Up till now I racked 120 hours and the only reasons why I can be close to where I want to be for PvP is because I abused the Desert wreckage exploit which I grinded for about 20 hours. Even with that I dont even have all the component unlocked for all classes. ANet said GW wasnt about grind yet to be worth a little more than an onion you need to spend hours farming for your runes. Watching grass grow or watching baseball is funner than farming. So you want a promise they didn't fulfill ? read your box. The only real one they have accomplished is 'free online play' and 'release is for April 27th' and in all honesty they should have done some balancing skills and work on removing the Elite mecanism instead of an early release.

Shinsei · May 12, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

Have I made any erroneous statements?

Hmmmm....let's see:

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

Or wait, I got it, you could just NOT play the game at all if it is so bad that you aren't enjoying your time playing it.

Or maybe spend some more time IN-Game and less time in here complaining about how bad it is, for YOU.

I usually post at school inbetween class, a place where I can't access the GW servers, and earlier today when I posted, this was the case. So no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

What "promises" has Arena Net not fulfilled? Did they miss the relaes date? Is Guild Wars NOT different from most if not all the other games of its kind?
Are not able to jump into PvP right out of the box?

They promised skill over time spendt. They promised competition on a leveled battlefield. They promised fun, and not mindless hours of preparing to have fun. So no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalt2

The game has been out for two weeks and YOU have not been able to obtain whatever "golden nuget" you are looking for so therefor there is to much grind, I'm sorry to hear that.

There was never meant to be a "golden nugget" in this game first of all. Like I stated above, this game was *supposed to be* designed for competition on a leveled battlefield. So no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Care to keep posting and give me more examples?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

With respect to the thread's topic, I'll choose to end the discussion (on my part atleast), and not reply to more on this matter.

And yes, I know I said this, but I couldn't resist the urge to return to this discussion, as it is so blatantly obvious that this game has turned its back on a large part of it's audience. It's funny how the other "group" of players who weren't "turned on" has so much hatred towards PvP'ers who have basically lost their game.